[Brainstorming] - Three Blind Mice Reboot
I do really like this idea of contest. I could be both, participant or judge.
I like the sound of this, although Im naff at making themeing, I can landscape a ride and track and supports are fine.
I will be glad to make a Japanese jetcoaster layout with no supports for the trackwork part. No one else can make jetcoasters like I can, as far as I know.
^ To amend that statement, I don't think anybody really wants to make a jetcoaster as much as you do.
As for the contest, I'm intrigued.
I’d love to do something like this! I’m still learning Fusion for scenery so I wouldn’t be comfortable doing that part, but trackwork and supports would be fine!
Yes, did wait for the reboot for so long!
I like the thought of it to change the supporting and the theming roles.
The biggest issues I see with this contest is due to the nature of teams. The first issue is getting enough people to join to fill out a few teams, especially since the school year is starting back up again. The second issues is getting people to commit to their role in 4-6 weeks. Things might come up that will prevent someone from completing their part, making it unfair for that person to have to choose between a "fun commitment" that isn't necessarily the top of the priority list and a real-life need. It would also be unfair for the other two teammates who won't have a finished product.
That being said, I'd love to judge this contest if and when it comes to life. My NLE username was kryptos001.
i would love to see this contest coming back to life. i never made it into one and also think that it would be possible with a little bit of planing.
If you could get enough people on board, this sounds like a great idea. I also support the idea of the themer going second. I think it would also make the supporter's role much more interesting / challenging.
i would think theming in second could be nice too. maybe the theming around supports isnt perfect but it would make a greater challenge for both. trying to make theming without supports and leaving enough space but also support a ride with theming could be a great challenge.
Mr_Sophistication posted on August 2nd, 2018
I also support the idea of the themer going second. I think it would also make the supporter's role much more interesting / challenging.
Generally this is where I disagree. If the supporter is last, he/she basically just "supports the ride", connecting pipes from the track spine to the ground or other theme elements. By placing the supporter in the middle, he/she can determine where something must go. For instance, if the supporter contours an airtime hill with very short supports, they are basically forcing the themer to choose between terrain, an arch, or a building to fill in that negative space. This gives the supporter some creative freedom, as they have some say in how the ride is set up, but not all!
However, I think we will have to end up with track > theme > supports. The problem is that footer height seems to be determined on the terrain below it, not a global variable. So if the themer came in with terrain, it'd mess it all up. :(
Kryptos posted on August 2nd, 2018
The biggest issues I see with this contest is due to the nature of teams [...] getting people to commit to their role in 4-6 weeks
Yep, and unfortunately this is just part of the contest. This actually happened to my team a few years ago. I made a crazy Intamin/Mack layout (wish I still had a pic), and Ajax did some very neat supports, all set up nicely for the themer with some nice gaps for a couple structures. The themer thought it failed tunnel test (even though it didn't), and he didn't even ask judges for clarification - he just ghosted us. So that was a bummer, and unfortunately it's just what happens sometimes.
For those looking to judge, if you could, please comment or edit your post with your NLE username if you had one. I'm trying to pair up who's who so I have some idea of how credible you all are. :)
What if the theme person went first? The themer places themed elements, terrain, scenery, and other things that then can't be changed. The themer can hint at and provide a path for the ride which the track builder then has to use or can ignore and do something else. Supports go last and have to figure out how to realistically hold up the track over any and all obstacles in the way.
The time commitment does get interesting. We are a few months away from Roundup 250 and the graphic for the LED lit signs is being designed now. We will show the finished prize before the end of August. Hopefully this will inspire a lot of people to compete for the big Roundup trophy, which means they might be too busy to commit to the scheduled time for track tennis.
-Ride_Op
Having the themer go first would be very interesting, but then it might end up feeling like a 5HOP II or other normal contests since most other contest asks their contestants to work around objects in a template.
Good point Tom, it'd be wise to schedule this behind RU250. Or perhaps well before, and people can use it as their entries. :) And I suppose having the themer go first could be an interesting spin, but there may be issues with train types not fitting, or unused tunnels and other oddities. I don't know if it would go together very cohesively.
If we decide to do this in Spring 2019, would Feb-March-April work? I believe this is actually when the contest ran last I remember. The upload date on A113's Outpost 7 video says April 25th, so that seems to be fairly close.
Remember that you will have more time. I think in the past, 2 weeks were given for each task which is quite a lot, especially for track and support duties. Themers could perhaps get an additional week. The contest runs over multiple months.
How about making it like if a park had to choose what their next coaster is? Imagine, a theme park as an unused plot of land on which they want to build a coaster. So, participants will have to team-up to get the better coaster and so, the park (judges) will choose which one they'd want built in their park.
I do agree with all that this would be a fun contest to bring back and I will agree with the logistical and creative challenges with the order of the build. I also agree that there isn't a really good solution. People will need to understand that this is contest that has higher risk of failure than other contests and just is what it is.
I'll throw out there as another idea for the order...having somebody generate a terrain first. My initial thought is to keep the teams of 3 and have either the supporter or themer (I'm leaning supporter for multiple reasons) take ~1 week to generate a terrain (and maybe a bounding box?) first. That get's handed to the tracker to build and then it all continues as it has in the past. This would provide the tracker with a little constriction and I think it keeps the disconnect between the phases (especially if the support generates the terrain). The tracker would have to attempt to understand the intentions of the supporter who generated the terrain. It also gives the supporter a little more influence over the design (who is admittedly the most pigeon-holed member of the team to start with). It would, however, make the supporter time commitment screwy being in 2 parts.
Also, I'd be open to taking part in the competition as any role if my schedule allows. We should definitely published dates before having people volunteer to be on teams. If I can't participate, I could judge. Disco, you know my username is the same as NLE and I'd say my 2 wins (supporter of Outpost 7 and themer of Trident) make me qualified :)
Lastly, I will look to see if I have the old files and screenshots from Trident on any of my old backup drives when I get a chance. That was definitely an interesting submission...
I know I've kinda been out of the community for a bit now, but I'd love to help out here, either doing track/supports or judging.
As far as rules go, JetPule's terrain idea seems to be a good one, allowing for the supporter to have more influence.
JetPulse posted on August 8th, 2018
I'll throw out there as another idea for the order...having somebody generate a terrain first. My initial thought is to keep the teams of 3 and have either the supporter or themer (I'm leaning supporter for multiple reasons) take ~1 week to generate a terrain (and maybe a bounding box?) first.
I'm beginning to agree for giving terrain to the supporter. It also gives them some extra creativity. However, I think it could still come after the trackwork. I feel like track creators could make an obvious decision if they want a cliff feature (i.e. half the layout is up off the ground). This is pretty common (especially for users of FVD) so I feel like it's not out of the norm. Then, the supporter can decide to fill in negative space with either terrain or structure. And if it's neither, that clues the themer to step in. :)
If I can't participate, I could judge.
I'd love to have you judge, but I understand if you want to participate — I want to also! You are very critical and have more experience on this type of subject than most who only started with NL2. I'll have to investigate others in this thread and see if their creations qualify their ability to judge.
In other news, I found two threads on Wayback Machine about the first NLE-hosted TBM contest starting early 2010. DC's extremely thorough ratings remind me of the old days where shit was SERIOUS! — Setup / Results
Honestly hard to believe that was 8 years ago. What a trip, thanks for sharing, Justin!
I’ll happily step up to judge this time around.
I ran one of the last Three Blind Mice contests over on NL-E and it's something I'd love to have a hand in helping / supporting if the team require it. It's a fun game that I'd love to see return, a bit like the Track Tennis games, I'd love to see that return too.
Hi Jared! Funny you mention it, I'm actually looking at starting track tennis too. Like, very soon - but I'm about to move and start IRL job stuff in the next couple weeks, so it will be a minute. I have a News post saved as a draft for an itinerary for the next 6 months when dates begin to finalize. Perhaps you could help run that too since it's pretty easy.
And, if you could help run TBM (think Feb/March 2019), that would be great. You and JetPulse alone could do a good job, though I can continue looking a third to round it out. Provided, of course, that you don't vanish like you did with your High Capacity Thrill Contest!!!
remember that one?? #salty
disco posted on August 1st, 2018
(JetPulse, if you have a screenshot of your winner with ASC that'd be awesome, I loved that one!)
Bust into the old internal HDD from my laptop from 4+ years ago...check
Find No Limits install directory and files...check
Find registration info because it wasn't registered (glad I was that organized with it)...check
Gain access to all my old rides (including two winning 3 Blind Mice coasters and a few other contest winners)...check
Blast From The Past!!!
First off...dating back to April 2010...(drum roll)...Outpost 7. I honestly don't recall exactly who was on my time. I think Real might have done the trackwork...
Next in line...coming in from December 2012...Trident. I have the names in the title image on this so I know who did what:
Trackwork: BigJoe97
Supports: ASCoasters
Scenery: myself (JetPulse)
So now that everyone has been hyped by NL1 graphics from over 8 years ago, who's up for another round!?
i would gladly be a judge and gladly participate whichever i get to do works for me!
^^ Oh man, I was blown away by outpost 7 back in the day. Glad it still exists
There was a lot of discussion in Discord chats about having more official contests. Specifically not 5HOP, something more lengthy. I thought it'd be a great idea to bring back Three Blind Mice, but there might be some things we need to brainstorm first!
For those who don't know, Three Blind Mice is a classic contest that involves splitting tasks across a 3-man team to submit a single entry. In the past, this consisted of one person in charge of trackwork, one for supportwork, and one for theming - in that order. The catch is that nobody knows who is on their team, and there is no cross-collaboration allowed! This environment produces some exciting and creative results. I would link more examples and winners, but NLE is gone. (JetPulse, if you have a screenshot of your winner with ASC that'd be awesome, I loved that one!)
Some things I would like to discuss:
I believe the rules have varied in the past. Originally, themers were last, and were also in charge of terrain last. This left supporters in the middle, and they would NOT use footers. Instead, they would place supports at strategic points midair to guide - or force ;) - the themer into making terrain/set decisions. (I can explain this more for those who are confused.) However, I feel like this system may not work well today, as I would like to see normal footers being used to keep things looking nice. Perhaps the themer could go second, making all of these decisions and leaving the supporter to just finish the job. But in doing so, the results would be far less creative. The magic of the contest lies in the disconnect, or separation of creative roles across all tasks.
Another concern for me is the themer role. There seems to be more adept themers now which is good, but in general, this is a very tough role to get enough people to sign up for. Especially for those who "can do it" but may not feel comfortable or skilled enough to be remotely competitive. Also, entrants have to be randomly divided into groups of 3, leaving some out. This is natural and unfortunate for those that may get cut, wishing to compete.
If anyone can find the old rules using Wayback Machine, that'd be stellar. I'm not sure where to start looking, but there are plenty of snapshots that contain forum threads within! What are your thoughts? And old NLE'rs, please feel free to chime in!