Frank's Guide to Force Vector Design :: Geo Sections Video Up Now!

Hello!

I've been working hard to create a video series to help those still having trouble with FVD, and I'm making this topic to continue the discussion at a deeper level than can be done with YouTube comments. I'm new to video creation, so my animations are rough around the edges, but the information is there, and digestible.

My focus is from an engineering perspective, and I try to introduce some of the things I've learned through study and work in an approachable way so as to not overwhelm those without an engineering background. Force Vector Design really is the fastest and easiest way to create many of the types of our favorite roller coasters, and with some patience, practice, and understanding, you can design the roller coaster of your dreams with ease!

I'll update this post as I finish and publish future videos, and will regularly return for discussion.

I hope this is helpful to you all!

This is great! I watched with great interest. I never put that much thought into the shaping of my valleys but your explanation does sound very logical. I'm eager to hear what you have to say about the roll-functions.

Awesome! Im just getting back into NL2 and this has helped a lot. Can't wait for what's next.

I'm happy to hear that this is helpful to some! I nearly have the Roll Rates video finished; most likely done by tomorrow. This should round out the basics of force sections and get people moving in the right direction. The videos for Geometric sections should be out quicker as I'm getting the process of script writing and video editing down as I go. The topic is also a bit easier to understand and explain, which will be helpful.

For the future though, any interest in a long-form video detailing the design process from start to finish of an entire coaster? I had the idea of time-lapsing through my trials through each element, then taking a moment to explain some of the decisions I made along the way. I'll probably skip supporting and detailing the scenery around the ride to stay topical though.

I also thought of making videos dedicated to specific elements and discussing some of the nuances between manufacturers, i.e. a video on vertical loops detailing differences between Arrow-Dynamics, B&M, and Premier as they all approach this same element very differently.

Let me know if there's any preferred direction that might help out more, or be more interesting to you all.

FrankLeeMadere posted on October 26th, 2021

I'm happy to hear that this is helpful to some! I nearly have the Roll Rates video finished; most likely done by tomorrow. This should round out the basics of force sections and get people moving in the right direction. The videos for Geometric sections should be out quicker as I'm getting the process of script writing and video editing down as I go. The topic is also a bit easier to understand and explain, which will be helpful.

For the future though, any interest in a long-form video detailing the design process from start to finish of an entire coaster? I had the idea of time-lapsing through my trials through each element, then taking a moment to explain some of the decisions I made along the way. I'll probably skip supporting and detailing the scenery around the ride to stay topical though.

I also thought of making videos dedicated to specific elements and discussing some of the nuances between manufacturers, i.e. a video on vertical loops detailing differences between Arrow-Dynamics, B&M, and Premier as they all approach this same element very differently.

Let me know if there's any preferred direction that might help out more, or be more interesting to you all.

Been learning FVD++ over the past month, and I have to say, your videos have helped a ton so far! Really grateful that someone's doing updated tutorials for the program (the next newest ones are 2 years old already...), with fresh insight and knowledge to provide. I especially can't wait for that Geometric sections video - and another one on how to properly emulate differences in manufacturer shaping could be pretty useful as well.

I have a question though: how would you go about designing a GCI-style funnel bank (such as Thunderhead's first turnaround) in Geo sections? It's really stumped me..

Kw6sTheater posted on October 28th, 2021

I have a question though: how would you go about designing a GCI-style funnel bank (such as Thunderhead's first turnaround) in Geo sections? It's really stumped me..

GCI is certainly the most difficult wooden manufacturer to replicate no matter the technique, hand-building, force sections, geometric sections...
I don't make them much, and was planning to only make a footnote on them in the geometric sections video given the degree of difficulty. I'll give this a go though, as it is a really neat element. Maybe if I get it down well enough and it's not as complicated as I'm first thinking, I'll throw it in there too.

My first instinct is to use a Geometric section with respect to Time instead of Distance as the shaping on GCI's is far less circular than other types; CCI and PTC in particular. I will let you know what I come up with and post. If it's not 100% there, a few extra brain cells thrown at it might do the trick. hehe

Here's what I've come up with. Not exactly there, but a pretty good start. At least, I think this is the element you meant; I've always known this as a Fan Turn and couldn't find anything on a Funnel Bank as you mentioned.

The main difficulty I found was getting that "pop" as the train climbs into the turnaround. I was overthinking it quite a bit at first, but it seems to simply be a product of rotating the train at just the right moment as it changes directions from curving upward to curving downward along with the right heartline value and with the track still moving laterally to the outside. Okay, not that simple but still kinda simple.
I chose 0.5m for the heartline which produced a decent looking rotation. I can't say for sure what the exact heartline used is though, but I'm almost certain it isn't the NL default of ~0.9m; discuss? And I say ~0.9m here as the measurement seems to be in dirty imperial units.

I also played with using simple, unaltered Quartic functions for the roll versus Plateau functions and can't decide which one feels more right. My example uses Quartic, but I do think Plateau would work better as that function can make the initiation of the roll much snappier. Will work with it more and decide once I get the shaping down a bit more.

FrankLeeMadere posted on October 31st, 2021

Here's what I've come up with. Not exactly there, but a pretty good start. At least, I think this is the element you meant; I've always known this as a Fan Turn and couldn't find anything on a Funnel Bank as you mentioned.

The main difficulty I found was getting that "pop" as the train climbs into the turnaround. I was overthinking it quite a bit at first, but it seems to simply be a product of rotating the train at just the right moment as it changes directions from curving upward to curving downward along with the right heartline value and with the track still moving laterally to the outside. Okay, not that simple but still kinda simple.
I chose 0.5m for the heartline which produced a decent looking rotation. I can't say for sure what the exact heartline used is though, but I'm almost certain it isn't the NL default of ~0.9m; discuss? And I say ~0.9m here as the measurement seems to be in dirty imperial units.

I also played with using simple, unaltered Quartic functions for the roll versus Plateau functions and can't decide which one feels more right. My example uses Quartic, but I do think Plateau would work better as that function can make the initiation of the roll much snappier. Will work with it more and decide once I get the shaping down a bit more.

Yep, that's the one! Sorry about the confusion there, the "Funnel Bank" name comes from American Thunder's marketing:

And about the heartline, Amalia's GCI Bible recommends using 0.85m for GCIs.
It's very intriguing and helpful to see an experienced FVD/NL2 user's take on this element - makes quite a bit more sense to me now. The main part that's stumped me was dealing with the yaw, and ensuring that there wasn't any laterals and airtime happening at the same time within the rise or drop. Thank you so much, and really looking forward to that Geo sections video!

Kw6sTheater posted on November 1st, 2021

Yep, that's the one! Sorry about the confusion there, the "Funnel Bank" name comes from American Thunder's marketing:

I see Fan Curve there but no Funnel Bank? Am I missing it? lol
The element they're calling a Fan Curve for AT seems to be the reverse of what Thunderhead has, where the airtime pop portion is on the way out of the element instead of at the beginning. I've operated AT as well, and so have ridden it quite a lot, and I can't seem to remember that moment being quite as impactful as the one on Thunderhead. Maybe just a product of it being at the end of the element.

And about the heartline, Amalia's GCI Bible recommends using 0.85m for GCIs.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. Tornado was a really nice GCI, and I'm eager to see what they say about track shaping in the post.
Do we have a source for the heartline value by chance? 0.85m seems pretty good to me, but would love to know exactly what the value is. I would imagine it to be a more round number with Imperial units as well given they're based in Pennsylvania; probably some 0.854938781..... meters, or so. hehe

It's very intriguing and helpful to see an experienced FVD/NL2 user's take on this element - makes quite a bit more sense to me now. The main part that's stumped me was dealing with the yaw, and ensuring that there wasn't any laterals and airtime happening at the same time within the rise or drop.

Exactly. The Yaw seems to pause for just that moment that the Pitch is changing direction with the Roll occurring just as the Pitch changes. Lining all of this up at the right upward angle with the right speed is super fickle. My version could have more of a "pop" in this spot, but a better heartline value may help that happen more easily as it would swing out the track a bit further through the rotation. So much is going on in just that part of the element, and really attests to the creative design of GCI.

The Geometric Sections episode is done! If FVD isn't your thing, I would still recommend checking this one out as I show a very basic and effective way to make wooden coasters that is far less taxing than using Force Sections. The method I introduce can help make simple wooden coaster layouts and has the potential to do it very fast, even faster than hand-building, and with the added benefit of your shaping being spot on from the get-go.

I hope you all learned something or got something new out of this one! :)

FrankLeeMadere posted on November 9th, 2021

The Geometric Sections episode is done! If FVD isn't your thing, I would still recommend checking this one out as I show a very basic and effective way to make wooden coasters that is far less taxing than using Force Sections. The method I introduce can help make simple wooden coaster layouts and has the potential to do it very fast, even faster than hand-building, and with the added benefit of your shaping being spot on from the get-go.

I hope you all learned something or got something new out of this one! :)

Awesome! Geometric Distance sections seem more difficult to design in than Geometric Time sections (at least from my limited experience), but I appreciated the straightforward and logical explanation for how to use them. Looking forward to what's next!

And about the whole "Funnel Bank" versus "Fan Curve" term, I'm pretty certain I just misremembered it, my bad.

For the Geo sections you can turn on the resulting Force graphs, That helps shaping complex sections way much easier

Kriov posted on November 18th, 2021

For the Geo sections you can turn on the resulting Force graphs, That helps shaping complex sections way much easier

Great tip! I tend to forget the resultant graphs exist since I usually use Force Sections except for simple things.

Nice little RMC ya got going there too. The element to the right of the stall, the zero-g type element that doesn't seem to want to complete it's rotation, looks pretty rad.
I would have gone for a geometric section for the first drop given the rotation, and for other elements like Outlaw's upward double barrel-roll, and then force for the rest. How come you went for geo for all of it though? I don't know RMC all that well yet, from a design stand-point at least, so more insight on their shaping and design process would be welcome.

FrankLeeMadere posted on November 19th, 2021

Great tip! I tend to forget the resultant graphs exist since I usually use Force Sections except for simple things.

Nice little RMC ya got going there too. The element to the right of the stall, the zero-g type element that doesn't seem to want to complete it's rotation, looks pretty rad.
I would have gone for a geometric section for the first drop given the rotation, and for other elements like Outlaw's upward double barrel-roll, and then force for the rest. How come you went for geo for all of it though? I don't know RMC all that well yet, from a design stand-point at least, so more insight on their shaping and design process would be welcome.

I think Geo is better to work with "Rolling" (<-> Looping) Coasters - I'd say the coaster which is not going beyond vertical to upside down - Geo can easily make more natural track shaping. For example, doesn't need to make the forces differ every way(which is mentioned to your first video) to make the pullout not pumpy. Also geo is far easier when making smth like barrel rolls or zero g roll/stall, its super easy to control the heartline from top view without thinking the forces and rolls, then edit it. Its also easier to give natural lats easily.

Another advantage for geo is editing purpose, Force sections would easily go Crazy when you try to edit the previous sections, but geo does not. It can be a huge advantage, when you almost did the entire layout but want to edit the first drop a little bit or change the turning direction a bit, etc.

But it has really big disadvantages for Looping coasters, while geo can easily can go beyond vertical to inverted, but its almost impossible to make "Inclined half loops" with geo, which is used for a traditional vertical loop(The end should shift from start, so the half of the loop has to be a bit inclined) to lots of Immelman/dive loops.

I think I see what you mean, and it totally makes sense. As long as the track doesn't go beyond vertical, like in a standard vertical loop, Geo sections work really well. Making that vertical loop with a Geo section is wonky and weird though; I've never quite gotten one right using only Geo sections, but have used a Geo section between force sections to make a perfect half circle for the top portion of a loop, such as the loop on Full Throttle under the Top-Hat.

I've always felt more comfortable with Force sections myself and used Geo sections pretty sparingly, but that probably has a lot to do with my enjoyment of making B&M coasters, which thrive on the Force section. I'll have to work on expanding my skill-set with Geo sections more and will definitely consider them for an RMC, so thanks for the info!

Also, happy Thanksgiving to everybody! I wish you all happy holidays! ^.^

Hi, Frank. I just discovered your videos last night and they're great. Do you plan on making any more? You and Robert Dean have the best FVD++ tutorials on YouTube but haven't been active lately with tutorials. Any plans on picking them up again soon?

Glad to hear! And good luck picking up FVD.
I have had some ideas, maybe a different approach to the instruction would be beneficial to get out there, perhaps a speed-build from time-to-time or a long-form vid where I just say what I'm thinking as I build. Maybe one of those ideas would be entertaining. I think I put out decent info in my first set of tutorials, but it was kinda dry and boring if I'm to self critique. I also made them when I was between graduating uni and starting work, so free-time for this stuff is harder to come by. So maybe not to the same degree, but something soon!

Awesome! I hope to see something soon. I subscribed and look forward to what you do!

how do i make the brake run not bank?

MohHaxer32 posted on July 25th, 2024

how do i make the brake run not bank?

Make sure the section before the break run is completely finished with the bank before adding a straight section. You might need to make the section before the brake run slightly longer to ensure this.